The Fall of America

[Ed]

A topic of controversy and meant for discussion not separation. Are we looking at the demise of the United States and the civilized Western World? The more I have studied and delve into the scriptures, the more I am beginning to realize that 'Israel' is going into captivity again. Does anyone feel the same way?  

[Moshe Mayim]

In order for the nations to attack Jerusalem at the battle of Armageddon, the United States will have had to be weakened in war or changed political parties and ideologies (which it recently did by theft) because there is no other country on earth that has stood with Israel like America has from the beginning. Is this it? Might be. A careful word study of Daniel 9:27 indicates that a covenant with many shall be made and then it will be delayed for a period of time and then finally confirmed. After a period of time that covenant will be broken bringing on the Great Tribulation - Jacob's trouble. 

Interesting to note is the fact that Obama authored or helped write United Nations resolution 2334 and it was adopted overwhelmingly at the United Nations in December 2015 right before Obama left office.

The resolution calls for Israel to surrender the Temple mount, the Wailing Wall and return back to pre 1967 (1949) indefensible borders. From prophecy we see that the anti christ is the origin of the covenant which is made with many (United Nations???)

I have never seen a better candidate than Obama for anti christ in all of my 66 years and he is still very active politically. Time will give us an answer.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolator.

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of YHWH cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

14:3 Then shall YHWH go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

I have many more supporting scriptures than just these posted today.

Looking forward to your response.

[Ed]

You are correct on the first point!

In order for the country of Israel to be encompassed by ALL nations the United States would also be among those nations or conversely, not be unable to assist the country of Israel (Jerusalem) at that time. I allege the latter. I assume you know that the present day Israel is NOT the Israel of the old testament. Being a student of the Shephard's Chapel I will further assume you believe in the tribes and that the 10 northern (collective) tribes represent the House of Israel and the 3 southern tribes (namely Benjamin and Judah respectfully) represent the House of Judah. This premise is extremely important when deciphering biblical prophecy. 

As such, the COUNTRY of present day Israel is actually the prophetic tribe (House) of Judah not the tribe (House) of Israel. 

Ok, I'd like to approach this subject in sections. I'll explain each point in theory, followed by an explanation and supporting scriptures.

Zechariah was a prophet dated by Bullinger (author of the Companion Bible) about 410BC. 

If you have a Companion Bible look at the back of the book under the appendixes #50 page 69. Scroll down the date line to 410BC and you will see he penned in that the prophecies of "Haggai & Zechariah begin". If you don't have a Companion Bible simply do a google search for the standard accepted date for when Zechariah started his prophecies. In almost universal uniformity, the prophecies of Zechariah start AFTER 580BC.

Bullinger's date line, also in the same appendix (#50) on page 68, shows the House of Israel (10 northern tribes) going into captivity in 611 BC and the house of Judah is taken 114 years later by the Babylonians in 497BC.

My point, BOTH houses and all the tribes eventually are conquered and the people become prisoners going into captivity. Additionally, both of these events occur 80+ years BEFORE Zechariah's prophecies begin. 

That means that Zechariah's prophecies are assuredly future! No prophet can make a prediction after the prediction has already occurred. In other words, Zechariah's prophecies were not about the House of Israel who had long since disappeared into captivity (611 BC) nor about the House of Judah who was captured by the Babylonians (497 BC) BUT are future regarding both houses.

So, as you quoted,

"1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather ALL NATIONS against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city." Zechariah 14:1-2

again...

"² Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.

³ And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it." Zechariah 12:2-3

Note, Jerusalem is in present day Israel but in this passage Judah and Jerusalem are the same; not Israel.

Here is definitive proof of the separation in Houses (tribes) by Zechariah himself.

"¹³ And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing: fear not, but let your hands be strong."

So I agree that the United States will NOT be around to help the House of Judah (present day country of Israel) nor it's city, Jerusalem at the end times. Luke also speaks of this prophetic event in Luke 21:20

BUT the tribe of Benjamin, Manasseh and Joseph are mentioned among the tribes of the end times in Revelation 7:4-8 (namely verses 6 & 8). Realize these are specific tribes within the collective Houses which I'll elaborate further upon in future sections.

Anyways, I hope you follow me and are in agreement with regard to idea of the Houses and their people.

Let's start with Paul. Extremely gifted in the scriptures of the Old Testament. Even his insight and explanations were hard to understand. (2 Peter 3:15-16) Learned under Gamaliel (Acts 22:3) so he could apply what he knew. 

Read 1 Corinthians 10:1-11. Pay special attention to verse 6 and 11. 

Notice the "ends of the world are come" that Paul states in verse 11. EVERYTHING is for an example unto those whom exist at the end of the world. That, by clear implication, is those Christians (written to the Christians at the established Corinthian church) who are part of the last generation. That is us today. 

These examples or similitudes were done for us.

"¹⁰ I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets." Hosea 12:10 

The Old Testament is to be studied, learned and applied as types and similitudes and examples for the future. 

Anyways, are you in agreement/disagreement? Your thoughts so far?

[Moshe Mayim]

My friend, I believe we are in complete harmony and agreement on everything you posted. Understanding the 2 kingdoms/houses/families of Israel is Key to understanding the prophecies and who is who.

The northern tribes will be regathered in the future and be reunited with Judah, Levi and Benjamin. I believe the timing of that is just prior to and then transitioning into the kingdom age.

It was right in front of my face for 30 years before I was made aware of it and now I can't , not see it all through scripture for the last 12+ years. What a blessing to understand this.

Maybe sometime we can go back and forth in the chat room. I am usually signed in and nearby mon - fri. around 12 noon - 2:30 pm west coast time. In chat room here.

[Ed]

I am open to speak about the bible with whomever. It would be my honor. Unfortunately, my time is limited to mornings. I reside on the west coast of California so I would be in Pacific Standard zone. God is good. His Word continues to grow. I'll write more on the subject shortly but have commitments this Monday morning. Blessings. 

[Moshe Mayim]

"Being a student of the Shephard's Chapel I will further assume you believe in the tribes and that the 10 northern (collective) tribes represent the House of Israel and the 3 southern tribes (namely Benjamin and Judah respectfully) represent the House of Judah."  Actually I am not a member of shepherd's chapel but learned these things from another source and like a berean, (acts 17)  studied it out and came to the same conclusions. Is this a shepherd's chapel site?  I have been given a moderator position so i have approved many shepherd's chapel applicants to become members here but I never seem to see them online when I am on.

[Ed]

I ran across this site based on the utilization of many resources shared by the forum. The Shephard's Chapel aligns with many of the 'ideologies' expressed therein. They are scripturally accurate on the text, for the most part. I don't think it is a matter of belonging to any specific church or following but rather an immense desire to seek knowledge from within the scriptures. I have been a Shephard's Chapel student in excess of 3 decades but do not agree with all their views. I am humbled and admire their commitment to the study.

Truth is sunlight which shatters darkness, warms the soul and brings forth life.

As for members on-line, this may be a small forum. I do not know if members remain or if life chokes off participation. Change happens and so do the people. I notice many conversations were from years past. It is possible that the vast majority of members are inactive.

[Ed]

OK, let us start with what should be noted by Christians today.

What is troubling to me is that most western country Christians are not aware of the atrocities being perpetrated against our brothers abroad. Seriously, the extent of Christian persecution is growing without recognition. In some regions, exponentially! We sheltered believers in western countries are only interested in the beast, the plagues, the one world system, etc. Why is there no LOVE for the multi-membered body of Christ??? Seriously, it is perplexing to me that we fail to see the onset of events.

Let me explain why America will fall but more importantly, why us Christians should be paying close attention to what is being labeled as terrorist and non-conformist. It is easy to claim Christian faith when it is not threatened but apply pressure, and watch what happens. 

Here are some scriptures to think about as we begin to study the demise of the United States and the western Civilization.

⁷ And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

⁸ And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

⁹ But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

¹⁰ Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

¹¹ And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

I'd imagine most Christians are familiar with Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. They each discuss the end times. This is from Luke's account. Now notice the very next verse.

¹² But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

¹³ And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

¹⁴ Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:

So, BEFORE the commencement of the 'birth pangs' we can expect Christians to undergo trials of persecution for their faith in YHVH. Don't read over that!!! Many will agree that the birth pangs have started and so too have the persecutions. We just don't see it yet. Pay attention! Outside the western world Christian persecution has grown. Check out site like The Voice of the Martyrs and 'save the persecuted Christian (dot) org.' 

Just because our leisure walk down the road is unobstructed doesn't mean we should not be concerned for our neighbors home that is a raging inferno. Seriously, are we that selfish??? Our time is coming. Read on.

¹⁵ For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

¹⁶ And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

SO, not all of us will be killed (MURDERED). Yes, some will! Maybe we'll be the luck ones. Others will remain in prison (verse 12). Are we prepared for this??? Do you hear anyone teaching this? We should be watching for our respective governments to enact some laws or rules that are contrary to Christian belief. As an example, the world hate Jesus Christ and therefore, as He told us, it will hate us too! (John 15 especially verse 19) Maybe being considered terrorist or social non-conformist? Sound familiar? Please pay attention. 

Do you see any churches or groups discussing this? Like I fore mentioned, most are concerned about the beast, the number 666 and so forth. Maybe we might consider crossing the bridge in front of us first rather than being worrying about the river, lake, hills and mountain thereafter.

¹⁰ His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber.

¹¹ Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they ALL look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter.

¹² Come ye, say they, I will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink; and to morrow shall be as this day, and much more abundant.

Isaiah 56

That sure sounds like a lot of Christians. Everyone is interested in their own gain NOT the welfare of other Christians. Remember, in Matthew 24 where is states "the love of many shall wax cold"? Well, do not be surprised.

What I'm saying is do not become Complacent!!! One day tomorrow will NOT always be as today.

I hear Christians say, "We are good people and do not sin." 

Do you know what the #1 killer of children is in the United States? Abortions. Oh, you will hear all kinds of statistics but add to the number all unreported abortions and the utilization of prescribed medications like the 'morning after' pills and contraceptives, and we MIGHT begin to realize just how great our sin is! That is only 1 facet of the arrogance.

Do we keep the sabbath regardless of the day of the week? I mean the whole sabbath with ALL our hearts? Do we give a little time to YHVH then do what we find enjoyable??? (Isa 58:13) 

These are but 2 examples, yet there is quite a number of other sins we live with. What would YHVH do if some of the Israelites were doing wrong? Would the country be held guilty?

Let me stop there. Thoughts? 

[Moshe Mayim]

I do not disagree with any of this. I do believe the United States may have a role to play  and the anti christ does have stiff resistance from a few directions but finally sweeps them away.

It would be very possible for the beast system to be in the USA and still protect Israel from destruction because our relationship is a secular one, not because America believes they are God's chosen people.

Neither govt. in either country has any use or love for the biblical believers inside of their nation. There are still a lot of very good people in the USA who do reach out to the persecuted around the world but when Obama was in office, he made things worse on them and strengthened their oppressors.

With Biden, I am sure it is going back to that again.

[Ed]

We can expect a slide in morality and a 'falling away' from truth, namely the Word of God. I'd imagine most believers agree that the return of Sodom & Gomorrah, in the spiritual sense, is inevitable. The current situation of the world is deplorable. As I explained, Christians are being persecuted globally like never before and the true church is under attack.

My point about 'soft' Christians is the acceptance of evil about us and living within iniquity without doing anything about it. Much like Lot. (Gen. 19:1-29).

First off, Lot was at the gate of Sodom. The gate is where judgement was issued so Lot did have some local authority. He wasn't a legal citizen but somehow had a position therein. Maybe the people trusted Lot or maybe no one wanted the position. Whatever the case the proof is in verse 9. Then two men (angels) approach the city which Lot acknowledges. Lot KNEW the two men were angels and offered them his home for the night and then an early departure. In other words, "come to my house for the streets are not safe BUT you have to leave early in the morning!" Do you think Lot was aware of the conditions he lived in? You bet he did.

Then when the mob of men come to Lot's house he offers his two daughters to the mob. WHAT? Why didn't he offer himself and spare his daughters??? Weak Christian? Living in a community full of sin? In fact, what do the angels tell Lot?

"...lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city." verse 15.

My point, Lot was living among sin even though he was faithful. Why accept the situation? 

Ponder this, do you think the city of Sodom and Gomorrah kept the Sabbath?

OK, does America keep the Sabbath. Even Christians pollute the Sabbath. I'm not talking about which day of the week or the specifics of the laws within Leviticus but rather that few truly keep it. It is as if Christians are members of the church of Laodicea; the final church in the book of Revelation. (Rev 3:14+) They are 'lukewarm' for YHVH! In fact, America fulfills verse 17 to a hilt! We are by far the richest country to ever exist! We are 'fat' with goods and 'need' nothing. 

Unfortunately we are blind and do not realize we have drifted away from our 'hot' first love. What does YHVH say He is going to do to the members of Laodicea??? Read verse 19.

¹⁹ As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

That's right, another confirmation that YHVH is going to punish us very shortly. Again, ponder the premise: If YHVH does not LOVE us then would He chastise & rebuke us??? This verse clearly states that BECAUSE He LOVES us He will chastise us. So, any true student of the Word already knows the punishment is coming. The question is, how sever is the punishment? 

In the discussion of Sodom & Gomorrah we know what YHVH does to those cities. Might we expect the same in America???

So, keeping with the idea of 'fatness' due to riches and pleasantries, have you ever read Zechariah 11?

⁴ Thus saith the Lord my God; Feed the flock of the slaughter;

⁵ Whose possessors slay them, and hold themselves not guilty: and they that sell them say, Blessed be the Lord; for I am rich: and their own shepherds pity them not.

Does this sound familiar? This is happening in the USA today and the shephards (pastors & priest) have no concerns, pity or cares. Look around. The flock (Christians) are being FED for the SLAUGHTER! First by the awful, deceitful leaders and those in charge but then YHVH gets mad and helps make us FATTER! (read on; verse 7)

⁶ For I will no more pity the inhabitants of the land, saith the Lord: but, lo, I will deliver the men every one into his neighbour's hand, and into the hand of his king: and they shall smite the land, and out of their hand I will not deliver them.

⁷ And I will feed the flock of slaughter, even you, O poor of the flock. And I took unto me two staves; the one I called Beauty, and the other I called Bands; and I fed the flock.

We will fall! YHVH even says that He will NOT deliver us. This is repeated all throughout the prophets. Here is one example to consider; Proverbs 1:26-28 In these verses YHVH will even laugh at us and He will not hear our pleas for help. Think about that. 

Lastly, there is a lot of information in the 11th chapter of Zechariah. Remember we spoke about the country Israel (House of Judah) and America & the UK as the House of Israel and that we would not be there to aid their demise? Well, read verse 14. YHVH, Himself, will break the bond between us! The country of Israel will have to stand alone against the world because the USA, and most western countries, will not be standing. 

There is too much to write. For those that think they will not be led into captivity Zechariah even uses the analogy of the 30 pieces of silver (price of a slave; the price to betray Jesus) in verse 12. We will be sold (spiritually) and led off into captivity as before. Remember, the OT is done for examples to us in the latter times. (1 Cor. 10:11) 

A great study on the two staves broken. They also have astrological significance if you study the works of E. Raymond Capt and Ethelberg Bullinger. 

[Ed]

I don't recall if I mentioned this but what were prophets?

They were individuals that YHVH called to confront the 'people'. Mind you that the 'people' INCLUDED the priest(s) and king(s) of that time. Consider this situation well. Imagine YHVH calls you to confront the rulers and religious leaders of the USA to tell them they are doing wrong. Not a popular job or position to be put in. It is no wonder that many of the prophets were hated and even persecuted. So remember how great their burden was in fulfilling YHVH's demands. (examples; Hosea had to marry a harlot (Hosea 1:2) and Isaiah had to walk around naked for 3 years (Isa 20:2-3)

So lets expound on what I said earlier about being fed. 

Zechariah 11 speaks of being fed to fatten a animal (person) so to be greater at the slaughter. This analogy is horrific. If YHVH is speaking of His people, then that means us Christians. As we learned in verse 8 of that chapter, the shepherds did not care about the flock. That means our SPIRITUAL LEADERS are not doing their jobs! 

YHVH asked them to FEED the flock in verse 4.

³ There is a voice of the howling of the shepherds; for their glory is spoiled: a voice of the roaring of young lions; for the pride of Jordan is spoiled.

⁴ Thus saith the Lord my God; Feed the flock of the slaughter;

⁵ Whose possessors slay them, and hold themselves not guilty: and they that sell them say, Blessed be the Lord; for I am rich: and their own shepherds pity them not.

As we see, the flock is NOT being fed. Not being fed means you are starving or in a sever sense, a famine exist. So, for us Christians in the latter times, what is the famine/starvation about??? Is it real food & drink? Yes, it will be physical. (Rev 6:6) Without digressing the verse in Revelation means a whole days work for a handful of wheat/Barley. In other words, you can make about a half a loaf of bread to eat after a full day of work. No money for anything else except feeding yourself. Forget your family or spouse.

How about on a spiritual sense?

¹¹ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:

¹² And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.

Therefore, in the spiritual context, the Word of YHVH will not be taught! Personally, my own supposition, all Bibles will eventually be outlawed and destroyed. People will not be able to own or possess a Bible much like in many repressive countries today. Again, that is my own supposition. We will see if it comes to fruition.  

Note that it is the shepherds that are "howling" but not doing anything. The SPIRITUAL LEADERS are crying and visually upset BUT they are not teaching or feeding the flock. The flock that have become fat and think they are without need of anything!

³ There is a voice of the howling of the shepherds; for their glory is spoiled: a voice of the roaring of young lions; for the pride of Jordan is spoiled.

 Now, in contrast, I've heard another teacher say that the shepherds are howling because the flock will not listen. This idea does hold some truth. Kind of like the shepherds know the sheep are getting too fat and they do not want to feed them more. Basically, the flock are eating everything INCLUDING bad stuff. In a spiritual sense, they would be Christians who are accepting all kinds of doctrine and polluting YHVH true Word. I personally accept the former premise and not this latter one.

I'll point to Ezekiel to prove my point.

34 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

² Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?

³ Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock.

Notice the issue is directed at the shepherds of Israel. That is specifically the House of Israel; the northern tribes; America, UK and the western countries. Our SPIRITUAL LEADERS are ignorant and not feeding the flock. I think many Christians today are clueless about what the scriptures actually foretell. 

Paul eludes to the ideology of being fed spiritually too. (1 Cor 3:2)

Anyways, I know I have written quite a bit but hope it does not come off as overbearing or worse, condescending. Please add your thoughts, knowledge or even questions.

[Moshe Mayim]

We think a lot alike. Ezekiel 34 and John 10 are awesome to read back to back. Same shepherd speaking in both testaments. We live in an age where the sheep are being fleeced of their money for books and tapes when they have it all right in front of them. I don't follow anybody or buy any materials.

For the last 12 years, I have been mostly bible only. I once had a library with around 2500 volumes of greek, hebrew, commentaries, dictionaries, translations and I was buried alive in it all. I would begin to look up a verse in a commentary which lead to another book which led to another book and then I would have books open all over the place and be far away from the verse that started it all. I had a large collection of early watchtower and other sect related books.

In the late 1980's, i sold the greater part of it all and just kept the translations which number around 75 but it is extremely rare that I even compare translations anymore. I started listening to audio bible back in 1982 and spent a good amount of time in both bible and audio over the years.

Finally around 10 years ago, I went mostly audio, it has been awesome. I hear things all the time that I just read past or over the top of. The famine for the word of God may have been mainly speaking of that time between the last prophets of Israel and the incarnation of the Son of God which was 100's of years later.

Now days with so much at our fingertips, there is no excuse for not reading the word today. People are more comfortable getting biblical sound bites than a full course meal in the word. I usually listen to around 90 minutes at a time and that way it is also all in context every time.

I am distracted with my wife's health issues so it makes me a bit sporatic in my responses. Hope all of the above makes some sense.

[Ed]

Your words make perfect sense. 

Being a Bible student is a profession which joins the multi-membered body. Scriptures are the food that sustain the soul. So agreed am I to your thoughts. As for reference material, I still maintain a substantial collection as well. However, mine remains extensive. It is something I should reduce but have yet to do. I still reference material from outside sources for further depth and clarity. We learn from a number of places.

As for your ailing wife, has she been anointed? You can anoint her & should do it! You should also do so to your home, land and any others within your household including pets. I am aware that you may have already done this but mention it for your benefit. We must remain obedient unto YHVH.

If you are willing, please provide me her first name & I will continuously prayer for her among those I plead the blood of Jesus Christ over. 

Thank you for Ezekiel 34. I had forgotten this chapter regarding shepherds. It is a powerful chapter. I have made cross-reference notes accordingly. 

With regard to the prophet Amos, I will disagree with you. He is an undated prophet with implications within the scriptures (ex. earthquake of verse 1:1) which might infer a timeline but definitely prophetic throughout the writings. We see a number of similitudes and ensamples with regard to the USA. If fact, Amos is a prophet mainly against the House of Israel. 

Anyways, unfortunately my time today is limited but I want to make a quick note. Part of understanding the demise of the United States is assimilating it to the prophecies of the House of Israel as well as the tribe of Manasseh. Much can be gleaned from the scriptures. However, do NOT limit insight to the specific terms only. The likenesses are also said of His people by comparing them to other people, cities and events. Just as satan is likened unto the prince of Tyre, the Assyrian, a box cedar, and a serpent they further provide a greater understanding of him. Likewise, we will see the USA (house of Israel) likened to the people of Moab, the Egyptians, a backsliding heifer and the cedars of Lebanon.