This is part of a discussion I had with an atheist, and I thought I would share it here. If I am wrong about anything, I would like to know. I don't want to be wrong!
"One of the oldest canards in the creationists' book is the claim that evolution must be false because it violates the second law of thermodynamics, or the principle that, as they put it, everything must go from order to disorder. One of the more persistent perpetrators of this kind of sloppy thinking is Henry Morris, and few creationists today seem able to get beyond this error."
Morris quote: "Remember this tendency from order to disorder applies to all real processes. Real processes include, of course, biological and geological processes, as well as chemical and physical processes. The interesting question is: "How does a real biological process, which goes from order to disorder, result in evolution. which goes from disorder to order?" Perhaps the evolutionist can ultimately find an answer to this question, but he at least should not ignore it, as most evolutionists do. Especially is such a question vital, when we are thinking of evolution as a growth process on the grand scale from atom to Adam and from particle to people. This represents in absolutely gigantic increase in order and complexity, and is clearly out of place altogether in the context of the Second Law."
Basically, this is their bottom line:
"To spell it out, there's about a trillion times more entropy flux available than is required for evolution."
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/11/entropy_and_evolution.php
Entropy is a thermodynamic property that can be used to determine the energy not available for work in a thermodynamic process, such as in energy conversion devices, engines, or machines. Such devices can only be driven by convertible energy, and have a theoretical maximum efficiency when converting energy to work. During this work, entropy accumulates in the system, which then dissipates in the form of waste heat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy
The precursor to the concept of entropy was disgregation, which “characterized the "transformations" of "working substances" (particles of a thermodynamic system) of an engine cycle, namely "mode of aggregation."” In this context, “the entropy of the system increases, whereas the entropy of the surroundings decreases.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disgregation
A flesh body viewed as a small universe within this universe (surroundings), “with a system” (circulatory), we find that the system becomes the same temperature as the surroundings (body).
At that point, according to the concept of disgregation, it requires intervention from an external source to transform a closed system, like the circulatory system of human beings and other flesh, because “it is now unable to do useful work, as there is no longer a temperature gradient.”
“In thermodynamics, a closed system can exchange energy (as heat or work), but not matter, with its surroundings.”
However: "Statistical mechanics demonstrates that entropy is governed by probability, thus allowing for a decrease in disorder even in a closed system. Although this is possible, such an event has a small probability of occurring, making it unlikely. Even if such an event were to occur, it would result in a transient decrease that would affect only a limited number of particles in the system."
Entropy flux: In the study of transport phenomena (heat transfer, mass transfer and fluid dynamics), flux is defined as flow per unit area, where flow is the movement of some quantity per unit time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flux
From the article:
“Styer also estimates the Earth's total entropy throughput per second, that is, the total flux involved from absorption of the sun's energy and re-radiation of heat out into space. It's a slightly bigger number…
To spell it out, there's about a trillion times more entropy flux available than is required for evolution. The degree by which earth's entropy is reduced by the action of evolutionary processes is miniscule relative to the amount that the entropy of the cosmic microwave background is increased.”
Do you know what else is a trillion times? That’s the stretching factor of the universe.
Here is a five minute video that will explain a lot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGH6ey6c2rQ
(There is a correction to be had in the formula of that video, as this has been considered for years now, with the correction noted on Gerald Schroeder’s site):
"CORRECTION TO THE CALCULATION OF THE AGE OF THE UNIVERSE
Following a talk I gave at AZUSA Pacific University, February 2011, a participant noted that when calculating the expansion ratio of space [that is, by what fraction space had stretched] from the era of nucleosynthesis to our current time, I had neglected to correct for the effect that the increase in the rate of universal expansion has on the current cosmic microwave radiation background. This increase introduces a non-linear effect. [That is, the rate of expansion is not constant, rather the rate is increasing.] The correction is in the order of 10%. Had the expansion been linear [and not super-linear resulting from the increased rate], the CMRB would be, not the currently observed 2.76 K, but 3.03 K. Introducing this correction into the exponential equation that details the duration of the six 24 hour days of Genesis Chapter One results in an age of the universe from our perspective of 14 billion years [14, 000,000,000 years]. From the Bible’s perspective of time for those six evocative days of Genesis, the number of our years held compressed within each of those six 24 hour days of Genesis, starting with Day One, would be, in billions of years, respectively, 7.1; 3.6; 1.8; 0.89; 0.45; 0.23.")
http://www.geraldschroeder.com/AgeUniverse.aspx
That would allow for the formula to be a little more accurate. The conversion will become .014, which allows for the inclusion of the seven days of the week (.014*7= .098, or 98% leaving only a 2% margin of error.)
14BB/1TT = .014
.014*7 = .098
98%
The other 2% of the Creation account is in Genesis 2.
Anyway, back to entropy flux. Have you ever read anything about the expansion of the universe and dark energy? The following is from a research paper published in July 2006:
"Entropy of Microwave Background Radiation in Observable Universe"
The summary:
“We show that the cosmological constant at late time places a bound on the entropy of microwave background radiation deposited in the future event horizon of a given observer, $Sleq S_{Lambda_0}^{3/4}$. This bound is independent of the energy scale of reheating and the FRW [Friedman-Robertson-Walker homogeneous-isotropic models] evolution after reheating. We also discuss why the entropy of microwave background in our observable universe has its present value.”
From the first page of the paper:
“…observations have indicated that the universe is accelerating, which suggests that the universe might be being dominated by a dark energy component…The simplest form of dark energy is a small and positive cosmological constant, which can fit data very nicely and is phenomenologically one of the most appealing choices so far.”
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/1971274_Entropy_of_Microwav...
We can know what that dark energy is.
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. –Genesis 1.1-2
Earth may not be the center of the universe, but it sure is the center of existence. In my calculations:
1 trillion – 1 trillion = 0 “work” available for this evolution theory.
For now we see through a glass, darkly… -I Corinthians 13.12
Tags:
I'm personally not an exspert on these terms or concepts so my responce will have to reflect simplicity on the subject.
----------------Basics of subject----------------
Entropy- "is a thermodynamic property that can be used to determine the energy not available for work in a thermodynamic process, such as in energy conversion devices, engines, or machines. Such devices can only be driven by convertible energy, and have a theoretical maximum efficiency when converting energy to work."
1. A quantitative measure of the amount of thermal energy not available to do work.
"To spell it out, there's about a trillion times more entropy flux available than is required for evolution."
To be honest when i consider this "bottom line" its like someone is telling me: I have a theory and my theory isnt contradicted with this spacific understanding (concept & terminology). I would ask that person: & What does that tell u? Personally, according to the "bottom line" relating etrophy to evolutionhas no point cause if one does understand the concept and did speak on it correctly it still doesnt prove it leads to any conclusion on universal evolution. There is an obvious "Missing Link" between the two. Entropy didnt set evolution in motion nor has it fueled evolution. To anyone who disagrees i only ask for some physical evidence where entropy alone has been used to produce evolution.
To say that "there's about a trillion times more entropy flux available than is required for evolution" is a strawman. My question now is, and just how much "entropy flux" Is needed for "evolution" can i see that calculation" and while we are at it can i see the blue print for evolution which even in honest science is full of loose ends, walls of truth, gaps,.....
We can note the amount of order and or disorder in a thermodynamic system, but can we or will we ever see evidence of a thermodynamic system being set into motion with ethropy. NO
The fact that there is order or disorder means that there is a defacto substance at play to begin with. What is the source of that? (Physical man can rationalize anything within his own mind.)
A measure of the loss of information in a transmitted message. I find this use of the term entropy to be a bit humorous in relation to discussions with atheists on "evolution" (just saying).
tendency for all matter and energy in the universe to evolve toward a state of inert uniformity.
This use of the term in realtion to Rudolf's theology suggests that the universe will at some point stop exspanding and will pull a reversal which will result back into a small sphere of matter in which the many also use to describe the state prior to a big band theory. Thats what people like this see as true wisdom. Organized disorder! LoL
Inevitable and steady deterioration of a system or society.
This is a biblical concept of the end times and relavent today as we look around at society. Those of the world will bare the mark of the beast. The one world system will serve the beast. Nature its self groans for the coming of Yeshua (the harvest) to this day (Rom. 8:22).
Jn.1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
(Jn.3:6-12)
One Love, One Truth
Thank you for your interest, Brock! You make good points, and I enjoy these types of discussions; so if I may be so bold, to ask for more of your thoughts and any others willing to contribute to my inquiry.
Physical existence ~ our universe in this dimension ~ is a closed, thermodynamic system, concerning “heat and its relation to other forms of energy and work.” Entropy is a very real part of that, as much as temperature and pressure. I believe it all fits together with God’s Word, and this is what I am trying to grasp. While science tries to prove it has assisted evolution of species on one little rock, which I see as a modern form of sun worship, entropy appears to me to be something very different. That is the point I was trying to make in the course of discussion with this particular atheist. So, we are on the same page, and I have a question utilizing your list:
Isn’t that the effect our sin has had on His creation?
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God is a consuming fire (Deuteronomy 4.24/Hebrews 12.29), and we can be hot, cold or lukewarm (Revelation 3.15-16).
Heat and cold make things expand and contract, a natural law. All materials are made up of atoms. At any temperature above absolute zero (-273 degrees Celsius) the atoms move. [God did not make a full end ~ zero out ~ at the time of the katabole (Jeremiah 4.27).] In a solid, they will be vibrating in fixed positions; in a liquid, they will be jostling past each other; and in a gas, they will be whizzing past each other at very high speeds. When a material is heated, the kinetic energy of that material increases, and its atoms and molecules move about more. This means that each atom will take up more space due to its movement so the material will expand. When it is cold, the kinetic energy decreases, so the atoms take up less space and the material contracts.
Realizing that, as we are encouraged to inspect the world around us for understanding, I was able to begin to understand some things about our physical and spiritual existence. I am still trying to sort it out, but I think our bodies are solid containments of water; we are in fixed positions in the flesh, and our jostling comes from the ‘water’ in our bodies, all propelled by our energy…our spirit. It is my opinion that, when the flesh body dies, our spirit is actually a ‘gas’ that returns to Him immediately (Ecclesiastes 12.6-7), as He quickens us (Romans 8.11). So, God is Spirit, not flesh or material substance (John 4.24). He is in a different dimension, the spiritual dimension.
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“…tendency for all matter and energy in the universe to evolve toward a state of inert uniformity.
This use of the term in realtion to Rudolf's theology suggests that the universe will at some point stop exspanding and will pull a reversal which will result back into a small sphere of matter in which the many also use to describe the state prior to a big band theory. Thats what people like this see as true wisdom. Organized disorder! LoL”
So, isn’t it all going to roll up like a scroll? This is where I find myself in my studies at the current time. It will appear to happen, when Satan is cast out during the sixth seal (Revelation 6.14). I’m wondering if heaven will open, for Satan to be cast down again. We would witness that, and it would deceive a lot of people. His Second Advent (seventh) will be the full effect (Isaiah 34.4).
All is created by His Word, and His Word cannot return to Him void (Isaiah 55.8-11):
“…For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways,” saith the LORD.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts.
For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it to bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
So shall My word be that goeth forth out of My mouth: it shall not return unto Me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it…”
His creation will return to Him. We are promised that the full Godhead will dwell with us again, YHVH Shammah! (Ezekiel 48.35). Note: That is rain AND SNOW from heaven! Snow is cold, which causes contraction.
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I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning,
Or ever the earth was.
When there were no depths, I was brought forth… Proverbs 8.23-24
That is Wisdom speaking, and the natural laws of God have always directed every aspect of existence. He created the depths, and then darkness was upon the face of the deep…after the katabole, the throwing down. If you throw something down, it gets farther away from you, right? Jeremiah 4 teaches that the darkness on the face of the deep happened at the time of the katabole:
28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
I do believe that the scientific observation of the expansion of space is very real. The reason for the separation is taught in Isaiah 50:
1 Thus saith the LORD, “Where is the bill of your mother’s divorcement, whom I have put away? Or which of My creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away.
2 Wherefore, when I came, was there no man? When I called, was there none to answer? Is My hand shortened at all, that it cannot redeem? Or have I no power to deliver? Behold, at My rebuke I dry up the sea, I make the rivers a wilderness: their fish stinketh, because there is no water, and dieth for thirst.
3 I clothe the heavens with blackness, and I make sackcloth their covering.”
We have sold ourselves, we have distanced ourselves. That darkness is sin, which has caused us to get farther away from Him. This is my understanding.
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In my opinion, science is racing toward proving what many of them deny. When I look at discoveries, I can reference Wisdom to find the Truth that my mind can’t reason on its own.
“Some six billion light years distant, almost halfway from now back to the big bang, the universe was undergoing an elemental change. Held back until then by the mutual gravitational attraction of all the matter it contained, the universe had been expanding ever more slowly. Then, as matter spread out and its density decreased, dark energy took over and expansion began to accelerate.”
http://www.physorg.com/news/2012-03-dark-energy.html
They present an image showing three different stages of the universe, from scientific observation.
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. –Genesis 1.1
That was, according to science, about 14 BB years ago; and that figure is very Biblical, when you consider the meaning and use of the number 14 in His Word.
And the earth was [became] without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. –Genesis 1.2
Science is finding evidence that this time was about halfway through the age of the universe, when “darkness was upon the face of the deep” and “dark energy took over and expansion began to accelerate.”
From the article, about the image:
“These variations included the signal of the original baryon acoustic oscillations (white circle, right). As the universe has expanded (middle and left), evidence of the baryon oscillations has remained…”
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water;
Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
But the heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. –II Peter 3.5-7
God spoke everything into existence, and our existence is “by the same word.” That acoustic constant is proven by science in the evidence behind the above quote from the article. He is The Living Water (John 7.37-39), and there is no darkness in Him (I John 1.5). The darkness comes from us, His creations. We muddy the water.
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Stefano Finazzi* and Stefano Liberati
SISSA, via Bonomea 265, 34136 Trieste, Italy and INFN, sezione di Trieste
Lorenzo Sindoni
Albert Einstein Institute, Am Mühlenberg 2, 14476 Golm, Germany
Received 29 March 2011; published 13 February 2012
"The cosmological constant is one of the most pressing problems in modern physics. We address this issue from an emergent gravity standpoint, by using an analogue gravity model. Indeed, the dynamics of the emergent metric in a Bose-Einstein condensate can be described by a Poisson-like equation with a vacuum source term reminiscent of a cosmological constant. The direct computation of this term shows that in emergent gravity scenarios this constant may be naturally much smaller than the naive ground-state energy of the emergent effective field theory. This suggests that a proper computation of the cosmological constant would require a detailed understanding about how Einstein equations emerge from the full microscopic quantum theory. In this light, the cosmological constant appears as a decisive test bench for any quantum or emergent gravity scenario."
http://prl.aps.org/abstract/PRL/v108/i7/e071101
That means the universe is more like water (condensate) than the original vacuum models used!
"Cosmic microwave background
Estimated distribution of dark matter and dark energy in the universe
The existence of dark energy, in whatever form, is needed to reconcile the measured geometry of space with the total amount of matter in the universe. Measurements of cosmic microwave background (CMB) anisotropies, most recently by the WMAP spacecraft, indicate that the universe is close to flat..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_energy
Flat, expanding water...like a flowing body of water. Remember, the darkness was “upon the face of the deep". We can look to the end for a glimpse of restoration. The space around us will look and be much different than what we know. The darkness will be gone.
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God. -Revelation 22.1
Take another look at that image about the scientific theory about when darkness first took over in the universe, and I believe it will be in the end as it was in the beginning.
I love this stuff! I could go on forever, but I’m curious to know what others think. I have spent a lot of time on this. Thanks!
I like the relation u made between Entropy/ sin and the character of spirits (which also agree with the "books" known in ceratin circles of religion)
Character/ Book
Hot-/ of Life
Cold-/ of Death
Lukewarm-/ of Those Inbetween
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"So, isn’t it all going to roll up like a scroll?"
Much can be said about :
Rev.6:14
And the *heaven *departed as a *scroll when it is *rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
This being a discription of what takes according to the revelation of the 6th seal. Discriptive of a major shift that takes places that is seen in the heaven and earth. Following this revelation we have others (7th seal) that still consists of the earthand heavens in relation to the universe.
* heaven- G#3772 (ouranos) Perhaps from same as 3735 (through idea of elevation) the sky, by extension heaven (as abode of God) by implication- happiness, power, eturnity, specifically the Gosepl (Christianity) ; air, heaven, sky
* departed- G#673 (apochorizo)- to rend apart, reflexively to seperate- depart (asunder)
* scroll- G#975 (biblion)- a roll; bill, book, scroll, writing
(a diminutive of #976- thus focussing on paper of the scroll/ relate that to the verse)
* rolled together- G#1507 (Heilisso)- to coil, wrap; roll together
- The heaven(s) /sky/ is departed /split-rent in two/ like (the paper of a) scroll when it is rolled together.-
Note: When rolling a Torah scroll together --><-- it reaches a point where if continued to be rolled together it Seperates (or rips). When using a scroll properly, one only leaves the portion being considered unrolled (open). The pages of a scroll were often weakest at the seams or in any other areas of weakness on the paper. So Pressure was kept off the seams whenever possible. Example: When shifting to a new portion one rolls both ends in a single direction. When a scroll recieved a tear it was to be put to rest properly. Its time (state) is threw.
Also within the Jewish culture, to rent ones clothes is symbolic of a change in ones spiritual state (passing over spiritually). This is what is being described in relation to those mentioned here in Rev.6
In Lk.4:20, Yeshua (Jesus) "closed the book" (rolled the scroll together) to show that a state was fulfilled!
Is.34:4 also uses the terminology "rolled together as a scroll" to represent judgement (negative effect/event) approaching from heaven upon the unjust and the closing of a state.
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(Proverbs.8:23-25:)
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I don't know what i think of relating Rudolphs outlines of scientific studies to the eturnal kingdom of the Word (im not that educated on his theologies). I do know that the eturnal kingdom will be a oneness of The Father's Family. I dont think science (alone) can even begin to document this dominon (Jn.3:3) yet i do see how we can relate the Word (Abode of God) to science and the physical realm (our bodies, nations).
Rev.21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
*new- kainos G#2537- new (especially in freshness, while 3501 is properly so with respect to age (aion)- new (renewed)
I like the relation u made between Entropy/ sin and the character of spirits (which also agree with the "books" known in ceratin circles of religion)
Character/ Book
Hot-/ of Life
Cold-/ of Death
Lukewarm-/ of Those Inbetween
God’s Word has been from before the beginning, everlasting (John 1.1). That means before anything, especially the most ancient of peoples and their religions. I have had others mention the Sumerians, Egyptians and others in my path during discussion because of my microscopic observations of existence; and my response is always the same: The Creator wrote His Word in the heavens, where no man can change It. Before the written Word, that is how the prophets taught. As they shared His Wisdom from above, others perverted His Truth. In this end time, there are too many comparisons to be had, and I try not to focus on any other word than His. I have studied many ancient religious beliefs in my time; but I have concluded that there is only One Word of God, that He is Faithful and True (Revelation 19.11).
The complexity in the simplicity of His Christ, The Logos, is what we can’t grasp so easily. In His teachings about the end time, our Lord states that He has “foretold us all things” (Mark 13.23). In the words of Pastor, “All means all,” and Pastor also teaches that all was taught in the entire Word (Law, Prophets, Gospels, etc). All there is to know about existence is given to us. Even from my little corner of existence, I can see that’s a lot of knowledge in His Word!
All of creation is the result of His Word. For something to exist, it had to be spoken into existence by God. Anyone doing anything is working within the confines of His dominion. Even Satan has to work within His laws and principles of Truth, but it is when those truths are twisted that they become lies. I am a follower of Jesus Christ, Yehoshua Messiah, and other religions mimic Him but fail in their completeness; which makes them the “instead of” belief. From my perspective, examining His Word in relation to His creation is not a New Age thing, nor is it like any ancient religion; it is reality because He is The Author and Finisher of my faith. It is He I have come to know so intimately, and I will recognize Him.
I don't know what i think of relating Rudolphs outlines of scientific studies to the eturnal kingdom of the Word. I do know that the eturnal kingdom will be a oneness of The Father's Family. I dont think science (alone) can even begin to document this dominon (Jn.3:3) yet i do see how we can relate the Word (Abode of God) to science and the physical realm (our bodies, nations).
Rev.21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
*new- kainos G#2537- new (especially in freshness, while 3501 is properly so with respect to age (aion)- new (renewed)
Did YHVH not “put her away”? (Isaiah 50.1)
Of course, He did. He is in a different dimension. This dimension and that dimension are in His dominion, as He is King and Lord of heaven and earth (Psalms 121.2, Matthew 11.25, Acts 17.24…). Satan, the main source of darkness, is only a prince of the earth in this dimension. Oh, that cherub that covereth (Ezekiel 28.14). We are physically blanketed with his darkness, as He said it would be in so many places in His Word (Jeremiah 4.28 &c). We are comforted, being told the things we see in this dimension are “temporal” (II Corinthians 4.18) ~ Lasting only for a time; not eternal; passing. War in heaven, as well as earth, indeed…He is more than entitled to NEW everything, when all is fulfilled according to His Word. Do you think the “NEW” will be another dimension? I do.
So, this dimension was created for a specific purpose that will be fulfilled, like everything else. I personally believe that I Corinthians 10.1-11.1 teaches some things no one should ever forget. We are learning, by example, the knowledge of good and evil ~ Light and darkness. That is what this dimension is to me. That is what we didn’t understand and what hurt His heart (Jeremiah 4.19-22).
The Creator’s ways, Laws of Truth and Life, are evident in any dimension He would ever create or destroy. That is what makes Him The Eternal One. The fact that we can’t totally understand is something I accept because He is my God. I can never be as He is, and I can only look to Him for answers. The best way for me to do that right now is to confirm what I see and hear by His Word, and what a wonderful example to behold. I can only imagine a perfect, dimensional creation of heaven and earth. But, it’s fun! LOL!
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