Finding Harmony In The Word
Who will be "left"/ "taken"?
Matt 24:36-44
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Lk.17:32-37 (as in days on Noah vs.26-27 and days of Sodom/Lot vs 28-29)
Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
Feel free to discuss. A few points of interest to discuss could be:
* Who is taken?
"taken" Greek # 3880 to receive near, that is, associate with oneself (in any familiar or intimate act or relation); by analogy to assume an office; figuratively to learn: - receive, take (unto, with).
* Who is left?
("left" Greek # 863
(to send; an intensive form of to send forth, in various applications: - cry, forgive, forsake, lay aside, leave, let (alone, be, go, have), omit, put (send) away, remit, suffer, yield up.)
* Who is the Thief?
(may want to consider 1 Thess 5:2-4/ 2 Pet.3:10)
* Which one is Blessed? (the one "taken" or the one "left")
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Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. Matt.13:30
Study notes:
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Rev.7:1,3 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Matt.24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mk.13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven
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In the NT it says the four winds (north south east and west/Example Zech.2:6)/ The End/ are (is) held back until the elect are sealed So that it will the the wicked that are taken out of the way which is what Job.38:13 is pointing to in the Tanakh/ btw breath and wind relate to spirit and its the spirits that will be judged (sealed) so if you understand you will see how all this relatesSee More
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by JOSEPH on
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"I never said shepherd's chapel was a cult. Do you always put words in people mouths."
Everything you have called to question, is directly from the Sherperd"s Chapel.
I find Pastor Murray to be one of the finest teachers if not the finest.
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Permalink Reply by 08oqo27awwutv on
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What is wrong with following the Bible example of the Bereans, and the commandment of Paul to check the teaching of ANY and ALL by the WORD of God?
I check everyone's teaching to what the Bible says in context.
You act as if it is wrong to do so.
And if someone is wrong according to God's plain word, they are wrong it doesn't matter how fine we think or feel they are.
ALL Men are fallible but God's word is not. Men can become prideful and spiteful.
But God remains the same and not one jot or tittle of his word will pass away. While the teachings of men shall be tested by fire 1Cor 3:11-15 to see how they built on the foundation of Christ. If any remain they receive a reward if not they suffer loss of reward.
The man whom I quoted below is A.M. (except the bold which replaced brother) and if I hold him to his own words and teaching and he himself is found wanting what is one to do?
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"I check everyone's teaching to what the Bible says in context.
You act as if it is wrong to do so.
And if someone is wrong according to God's plain word, they are wrong it doesn't matter how fine we think or feel they are. "
I never said it is wrong to check ones teaching. And I knew it was Pastor
Murray you referred to.
He does say to check his or anyone's word concerning teaching the word.
I am no scholar and would not claim to be, but do find Pastor Murray's teaching to be on the money.
I believe him to be a scholar and a fine one.
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If you are not a scholar (one who studies - in this case the Bible) how can you claim to find his "teaching on the money"? Especially when in light of the text of 1Thess we see that you are wrong?
I have showed clearly that something is being taught that is not in the scriptures except to give it a private interpretation by the very man who says to check his teaching. And if we find him lacking what then?
If we find yours and his teaching is not of God's word and we follow what the Holy Ghost Says then we need to follow God's word and not you or another for you'ved failed the very test that your favorite teacher has put forth for us to check it by.
How many times have you accused me of saying that 1 Thess 4 is teaching a rapture and a flying away?
I have not once said that, however I get the impression you seem to think that is what 1Thess 4 says "if" we follow the plain line of thought of the context of 1Thess4. I wont go to a Latin or Greek to try and label this I will stick to the English. and it does not say Rapture or flying away.
I am not saying he is wrong about what other Pastors or Brothers are teaching. I am asking what is he teaching and your repetitive response is that “air” is the “breath of God” as well as other misnomers to the plain context of the text. And then scriptures are taken out of context in Revelation (not Revelations as you constantly use) in Matthew and other books to make this event taking place right now the time of Jacobs trouble, the day of the Lord’s great wrath. For that is when the trumps of Revelation are sounded.
Scriptures are not meant to twist around to make tickling ear teachings but for one to grow in Christ likeness and edification of the body of Christ. I do not think condescending speech, false accusations (by putting words in my mouth), and condemning tones because you don’t agree with what the AV Bible clearly says, are attributes of Christ so I assume you learned them from someone else while listening to anothers teaching and you have taken on his character. But not the character of Christ in the least.Have you ever read where Jesus said, "this would better be translated or the Greek word here is this or that and should have been translated? No you wont find it and so how can we trust others if they do something that Jesus never did and then tell us to follow the Holy Spirit and we will be right. When it is clear they are not Christ like in attitude or teaching.
The questions stands what do we do with a man whose teaching does not pass the test of God’s words when we have followed their own teaching and instruction to do so?
His own answer was to follow the Holy Ghost and we will be in the right.
If the holy Ghost by comparing spiritual to spiritual (1 Cor 2) proves a man's teaching to be false according to Paul we are to stop our fellowship with him. Tit 3:9-11 ¶ But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
We were warned by peter 2Peter 2:1 ¶ But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
How do we figure out if men's teachings are not true to the word of God?By simply comparing it to the context of any leading verses for their doctrine and check all supporting verses in their context as well. If these verses are out of context and do not literally, clearly and simply support the teaching like “air means the breath of God” in 1Thess4, we are to reject the teaching and admonish the teacher. Then we would have to take all his other teachings and double check them with the same test as well. And the more I check what you are teaching the more I find you not teaching truth but yours or someone else’s private interpretation of the scriptures, of which we are told there is NONE.
Never fear if you are following God then all will prove itself by God's word. If we are not it too shall be revealed by his word we need only study (to be scholars) and rightly so.
let me say this 1Thess 4 is not teaching a rapture or a flying away. It is teaching that Jesus will come and gather us unto himself whether alive physically or dead physically, where we will be with him forever more and this according to 2 Thess 2 will take place instantaneously with the revealing of the anti-christ. See how plain and simple the word of God is. How Jesus Gathers us is only said to be "caught up" or a gathering together unto himself. and this teaching of Paul is for comforting of those whose loved one in Christ have already died physically.
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"Scriptures are not meant to twist around to make tickling ear teachings but for one to grow in Christ likeness and edification of the body of Christ. I do not think condescending speech, false accusations (by putting words in my mouth), and condemning tones because you don’t agree with what the AV Bible clearly says, are attributes of Christ so I assume you learned them from someone else while listening to anothers teaching and you have taken on his character. But not the character of Christ in the least."
Scholar No, STUDENT Yes , As far as putting words in you're mouth
I don't think so. We are not to JUDGE anyone , this is GODS job
not yours, not mine not anyone's but GODS.
However, we can discern what another is teaching, and if we do not agree, we are to dismiss this person. I have dismissed you.
Again I will tell you, I am a student not a scholar. You have a
different interpretation of the meaning, and that is fine, it
really don't matter.
What do you call yourself scholar, teacher or student ?
I see you study the AV I am not very familiar with this writing
I study the KJV.
The only information I have concerning the AV is the following.
As any student of English Bible history knows, the Authorized Version of 1611 was not the first Bible to be translated into English. But even though hundreds of complete Bibles, New Testaments, and Scripture portions have been translated into English since 1611, it is obvious that the Authorized Version is the last English Bible; that is, the last English Bible that God "authorized."
Because the Authorized Version is the "last" English Bible, and because its defenders believe it to contain the very words of God, various schemes have been contrived to make the English Bibles up to and including the Authorized Version fit the description in Psalm 12:6 of the words of the Lord being "purified seven times." The problem is that the Authorized Version is not the seventh English Bible -- it is the tenth one.
Although there were some attempts during the Old and Middle English period to translate portions of the Bible into English, the first complete Bible or New Testament in English did not appear until the fourteenth century.
This is the extent of my knowledge concerning the AV and as long as it is in
line with GODS word this is fine.
Is it that you believe that you will not be here if the day SATAN returns is
in our lifetime ?
Or do you believe you will be taken before Satan's return at the 6th trump ?
Satan 6th trump:
Jesus 7th Trump
Read Mark 13
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seems you don't know what the real meaning of Scholar is. It was changed recently to mean someone with letters behind their name. But originally and it still carries the meaning of a Student one who studies. Today's scholars don't study and may students don't either most students today just take in what is being fed them without question.
The AV was the first WHOLE and COMPLETE English Bible.
How can you know if a Bible is in Line with God's word unless you have all the originals?
There are none they are all gone and none of them was ever a complete Bible. The Greek was never a complete Bible the Hebrew was never a complete Bible. the Aramaic Was never a complete Bible or any other language any original was ever inspired into at those times in those languages.
So somewhere along the line in order to keep his word God guided, led, inspired and preserved his word to this generation of English speaking people. But it wont be found in a multitude of Books. Look for the one Bible everyone hates and despises. the one everyone attacks which usually is the AV.
You are confusing the beast and Satan. The anti-christ is the beast of Revelation. Satan and the anti-christ are two different persons along with the false prophet which make up a type of unholy trinity.
you should study more and listen to others less.
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"teaching on the money"? Especially when in light of the text of 1Thess we see that you are wrong"
2."so I assume you learned them from someone else while listening to anothers teaching and you have taken on his character. But not the character of Christ in the least."
3. "let me say this 1Thess 4 is not teaching a rapture or a flying away. It is teaching that Jesus will come and gather us unto himself whether alive physically or dead physically"
ANSWER TO QUESTION 3.
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.GOD IS NOT A GOD of the dead , but of the living.Also in the book of:Ecclesiastes you will find where the soul go's upon death of the flesh.
Do you think all the dead rotting flesh bodies are of any further use to GOD ?
The flesh go's back to which it was, dirt, the spirit instantly returns
to the Father.
The Dead you speak of are Dead spiritually not physically. have
you not read this.?
ANSWER TO #2.
Jesus' famous reprimand for those who spend lots of time judging others, while ignoring their own faults. We certainly wouldn't want to be judged in the same way we judge others--so leave the judging to God, and focus on correcting your own weaknesses instead.
MATTHEW 7: 1-3
2ND THESSALONIANS:
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
Those who believe in the RAPTURE THEORY seem to stop with
1st Thess. and fail to read 2nd, Thess. when Paul made it a point to
return, to fully explain that the above must take place first.
SO WHO RETURNS FIRST, SATAN
OR JESUS CHRIST ?.
Satan , of course, claiming to be Christ at the 6th Trump
6th Vial, and 6th. Seal.
666 look familiar ?
A Christian should not judge another, it would appear you
may have been doing just that to me.
Remove the plank from you're own eye so you can see the
sliver in another's. GET THE POINT?
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"What is wrong with following the Bible example of the Bereans, and the commandment of Paul to check the teaching of ANY and ALL by the WORD of God?"
THIS:
. We must search the scriptures if we are to be Berean Christians.
If we choose to be a Berean Christian, we must be dedicated students of the scriptures. We must recognize that the source of the truth is the word of God and the word of God alone. And as students of the word, we must try by the word whether the things preached and taught are true. Notice how the Bereans did not except what Paul and Silas preached because they were great preachers or well-known. In St. John’s gospel chapter five verse thirty-nine we read, “Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.” If we choose to be Berean Christians we must subject all that is taught or spoken to the authority of God’s holy word. The Berean Christian must not establish truth on what he senses on the emotional level, or on his personal opinions but strictly on the bases of the scriptures. The preacher should demand that his hearers make recourse to the word of God to make sure that what was preached, or taught was correct. Berean Christians are suspicious of any minister that discourages questions, and simply demands blind obedience. No where in the bible are we taught that we are to blindly follow anyone; this would include the minister. In Isaiah 8:20 it says, “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.” The faith in Christ is a rational faith, and a faith that can stand the test of intellectual scrutiny. We do not have to dump our brains and become brutes to believe the scriptures as some in the scientific world imagine. The Lord Jesus himself commanded that the scriptures be searched. This shows us that God is interested in a thoughtful consideration of the truths advanced in the scripture. Unlike that of cults and false religions, true servants of the Lord encourage the asking of questions on the part of the hearer. An unexamined faith is not worth anyone’s commitment. Truth is not afraid of being examined because truth will always prove to be
example:
Notice how the Bereans did not except what Paul and Silas preached because they were great preachers or well-known. In St. John’s gospel
I know nothing about BEARANS other than what is copied above, so
I cannot answer one way or the other.
I will stick to what I am being taught on Sherperd"s Chapel
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ON shepherd's Chapel
sounds like pic and choose obedience to me. Where do you gather with other believers physically and worship and and study. and who hold you accountable to what you do or don't do?
There is no true fellowship over TV/Radio or Internet. True fellowship is the coming together. to foresake assembling together is SIN, to not be submitted to a local assembly as we are commanded by Paul is SIN. To practice things not taught or exampled by Paul or Jesus is SIN.
You cant live in Oregon and be pastored by a man in Tennessee. That is not a local assembly. You may go to school that way but that is not fellowshipping.
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"sounds like pic and choose obedience to me. Where do you gather with other believers physically and worship and and study. and who hold you accountable to what you do or don't do?
There is no true fellowship over TV/Radio or Internet. True fellowship is the coming together. to foresake assembling together is SIN,"
WHO HOLDS EVERYONE ACCOUNTABLE ?
GOD !
Remember, Where two or more are gathered in my name
there I will be among you .
Example: one who lives at the Arctic circle and listens by
radio, is this person committing a sin ?
This example is a bit overboard, so lets try another,
To gather with those that believe in the rapture theory
is this ok ? You know that they are mislead and have taken
the word of a false teacher, is it ok to gather with them ?
SON OF PERDITION: who is this, and is he part of what you stated
" they are 3 different people the beast ect. ?
Please elaborate !!
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It appears to me you are one of "CHETTES" minions, all I can
and will say is have a good trip when you fly away.
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"Well Pastor Murray has always told me, No! What did God tell you, what does the word of God say? I don’t care what Pastor Murray says, this Pastor or any other Pastor. But what do those scriptures say? That’s your choice, if you make the right choice listen to your father through the unction of the Holy Spirit and you will always be right"
The above is a quote of which the bold words replaced brother.
Can you tell me who I am quoting?
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