The 2 witnesses

[William H.]

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We are told of 2 that preceed 2nd Advent (prepare the way)of Messiah. Who are these two?

Yeshua, Elijah,1 of the two Enochs of the bible, (and IMO Moses) were all transfigured ( translated). Note: Satan and Michael's conversation over the body of Moses /Jude 9/ and lets not forget Moses appeared at the Mount of Transfiguration) .Its my understanding that the two witnesses in

----Rev.11---- are two individuals (olive trees) over two churches (candlesticks) /Groups of followers of G-d.

---Rev 11:(3),4---These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing (1 Kings 17:1 Elijah/ Moses..) before the G-D of the earth.

**** --Rev.1:20----the mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand , and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. Note that there were two churches Christ found no fault with out of the the seven mentioned in Rev. (Church of Smyrna) Rev.2:8,9,10,11 (Chruch of Philadelphia) Rev.3:7,8,9,10,11,12,13

****REV.11:4***** 2 olive trees ***** 2 candle sticks**** Okay so what are the candlesticks?

Candelsticks/ lampstands = "churches" (kjv) that are represented by the two "olive trees" (branches)* REV.11:4=REV.1:20.

*What are the Olive trees? **Rev.11:4= Zec.4:11,12,13,14**

Zec.4:11,12,13,14 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof? And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves? And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the LORD of the whole earth.

(Moses and Elijah stood with Christ on the mount of transfiguration)

In other words the olive trees are (Two) annointed individuals (who, it doesn't say). The two individuals are most likely Elijah & Moses (IMO/ based in Scripture). Their message is that of The 2 "churches" (branches).  Hashem is the foundation of these two churches, and both olive trees are in harmony with Yeshua.  Rev.12:17 (Gal.3:24-29).MARK 9:4

Rev.(11:6) states that the two witnesses have the power to keep it from rainning. Elijah did this in 1st Kings 17:1. Also recorded in Jas.5:17

Moses and Elijah are seen as possibilities for the two witnesses due to the witnesses' power to turn waters into blood ( Rev.11:6), which Moses is known for (Ex.7), and their power to destroy people with fire ( Rev.11:5), which Elijah is known for (2 Kings chapter 1:10-). Also giving strength to this view is the fact that Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus at the mount of transfiguration (Matt.17:3,4). While the word doesnt come out and say Moshe and Elijah are The 2 the discription of the 2 is identical to that of Moses and Elijah.

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Rev.6:11 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood (G#129), and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. (Waters is a metaphor used throughout the WORD to mention Peoples. Blood here is to literally say blood and can be taken figuratively as mentioning the atoning blood of Mashiach! Thus the two anointed witnesses will be bringing many to the atoning blood of Yeshua (salvation)!

1 *Olive tree- *Moses represents The Law /TORAH (seat of Moses is the seat of the Law giver/ covenant with Israel)/ "Jews" in covenant make up the candlestick Moses represents Candelstick members- Torah observant believers (one who embraces Hashem is embracing Mashiach as well) These members have brought forth and preserved The Tanakh ("OT")/ The Law which also gave the standard of Atonements (in Messiah)

Olive tree- *Elijah represents the forerunner ( The Prophets) of Messiah (Renewed Covenant/ Repent/ fulfillment/ ResTorahtion/ and relation of torah to the nations).  (The increase/believers within the nations). The two candelsticks can be seen as the true believers amoung Israel (Jews) and Gentiles (Netzarim/ Christians/ Messianics....) !

Candelstick members- Torah observant believers with revelation of (Yeshua) HaMashiach. ("Israel"/ The "church/es")*****Eliyahu & Yochanan*****

(Mal.3:1/ Mk.1:1-8/ Is.40:2-3/- Appendix 107 II. 4/ Mal.3:11;4:5-6/ Lk.1:15-17,41 -in the womb/water/ Matt.3:2-3/- Matt3/ Matt.11:12-15/ Jn.1:6-8;3:27/ Ps.133:1-3) 

Spirit Of Elijah at 1st and 2nd Advent :Elijah is to return as forerunner of Yeshua Messiah (Ben David) at the 2nd advent (*Mal.4:1-6 *). The role of Messiah at this time is one of judge (King) in which sets up the Kingdom and reaps the harvest.

A voice crying in the wilderness Is.40 (Jn. 1:23-25)

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(1st Advent) John the baptist, the forerunner of Yeshua (Messiah Ben Yoseph) knew of this role of Messiah. Yochanan had already testified and witnessed Yeshua to be in the role of Mashiach (Ben Yoseph). However he showed concern about his understanding of how he related to the role of Mashiach (ben David) and When. Matt.11:3.

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Yeshua read a torah portion on Messiah (* Is.61 *) in the synagogue (*Lk.4:16-22) stopping where Messiah (Ben Yoseph) would be cut off (Dan.9:26/ crucified) showing the fact that there would be 2 advents and showing the role of Messiah in each! Many responded by saying is this not Yeshua son of Joseph (Ben Yoseph)? ("father In Law") / "Yoseph" (Joseph)- given to increase/ Like the Word of G-d being revealed to the nations. 

http://friendsnchrist.ning.com/notes/Joseph ____________

side note: (Within Judaism there are two positive Messianic offices Messiah Ben Yoseph -Redeemer <and> Messiah Ben David- King/ Rabbinical tradition tends to show these as two individuals rather than the truth that Messiah comes in two advents. So in a way they were saying is this not Messiah the Redeemer /Yeshua - savior of Yah (while yet trying to be condescending since the legal Father of Yeshua -Yoseph (meaning God gives the increase) was not socially considered an elder in the priesthood not withstanding the fact that Yeshua was born of a virgin (Son Of God)* Lk.4:24)/ Yeshua continues by mentioning Elijah and how Israel wasn't completely ready for the authority that Elijah was given as well as how the prophets arent accept of their own people (Matt.11:14)/ Ironically (many of) those in the synagogue became filled with wrath and couldn't see past the flesh of Yahshua to recognise the role of Messiah.

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Lk.1:11-17 Zacharias was told his son John would bring many to return to The LORD by the spirit of Elijah. (Mal.4:5-6)/* Matt.3:1-3/

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John knew the roles of Messiah and yet was also living the effects of spiritual wickedness in high places that seeked to use violence against God's people. John knew that Messiah was to set up the Kingdom and sent for a word from Christ on the subject while yet in prison prior to being killed.

2 Advents?_____

Matt.11:3-6  And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another? Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see: The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them. And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

(*Is.29:18-24/* Is.35:4-10/* Is.61:1)(Lk.7:22,23) 

Matt.11:12-15 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elijah, which was for to come. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. (Matt.10:28) (it wasnt received) 

John wasn't "received", they chopped his head off 

(Lk.7:27,28). John came in the spirit of Elijah but the role of Elijah wasn't completed at that time. Forerunner of Messiah's deliverance & reign *Mal.3:1-3. We know all this was foretold of and for the sakes of many was an enemy to the gospel found in the midst of Israel Rom.11:28.

(notice Moses was also mentioned in Mal.4!)

Men wanted to know what John had to say for himself. Humbly John pointed back to our LORD!

Jn.1:21-23And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elijah? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? (like unto Moshe) And he answered, No. Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Isaiah.

We were told Elijah would come before that great and dreadful day (the LORD's day of judgement). Yochanan came in the spirit of Elijah if ye will accept it (he wasnt accepted / neither was Christ) thus the death of Yochanan was a sign there would be two advents and Elijah is to return before the 2nd!

As John professed Christ before men, Christ also professed John was a man of God (Matt.10:32)!

There are those that lean towards Enoch and Elijah even though the description of the two witnesses lean toward:Elijah and Moses.

I feel it is a stretch to say Enoch based only on the understanding that he was transfigured (Heb.9:27/ Gen.5:23) when Moses and Elijah fit All the qualifications within scripture and we also see evidence that both of them were transfigured. (Seems some are left considering Enoch simpley cause he was raised up) Gen.5:23 says his days had an end as well. We cant exclude Moshe for the reason you consider Enoch but Enoch doesnt apply to the description like Moses!

There is a situation where some recieve not "the promise" as to say he promises them something different. Seeing as the time of the two witnesses is longer than the time of the anti and the anti slays the two witnesses, The two witnesses will be with us prior to and during the anti. (will you recognize them? More importantly will you receieve their witness?) When the Anti slays the two witnesses that is the last straw for G-d commamnded The rebels not to touch his annointed. The wicked one wont be able to stand their witness, thus he shortens his own time when he breaks the commandment and slays the two annointed ones (Rev.11:11).

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Jerusalem

Its the anti that slays the two witnesses Rev.11:7 / 2 Thess.2:3 (Rev.9:11/ Eze.28 / Apoleia) / Rev.17:8/ Rev. 9:1,2/ Dan.7:21 (1 Chron.16:22, Ps.105:15. Rev.9:4)

He stands in the holy place (temple mount/ Jerusalem Lk.13:33/ Matt.24:15-16/ Mk.13:14/ Dan.9:27/ Dan.11:31/ 2 Thess.2:4). Armagedon - the gathering place of the crowd Rev.16:16

Today we are witnessing a messianic movement even though the world as a whole in experiencing a great increase in wickedness Eze.37:15-28 <-- Grafted together (Mal.1:11/ Galatians 3:24-29/ Rev.12:17)

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Truth is established by two (or more) witnesses: Deut.17:6; 19:5/ Num.35:30/ 2 Cor.13:1

Amoung Abram and Isaac was Abraham's faith professed.

Sarah and Abraham witnesses fellowship with Melchizedek (of whom also brought /THE/ 2 witnesses) 

Torah

Moses was witnessed by Israel having communication with Hashem. Israel requested that The LORD speak to them through Moses for fear of his Holy presence. Moses and Aaron (Ex.7:1) were 2 witnesses used to confront pharaoh. The message of Torah is said to be relayed to us by Moses and Yehoshua.

Elijah representing The Prophets

Fulfilments of prophacies are the complete witness of the prophets!

Elijah and Elisha along with signs!

John the Baptist and Christ (Jn 1:33)

(Jn.5:31-36) Christ and the Father (Jn.8:16-18), miracles and signs (dove), fulfillments of prophacy,...

You and God make a majority!

Man's Hand?

Its also interesting to note that we see the precedence being changed (within oral torah interpretation) within the same time that we see an increase in belief that Yeshua was The Messiah (within the decendants of Israel) (I can document if need be examples: the precedence of the interpretation of Is.53. Anyone who takes oral Torah seriously knows this is a problem cause when we have difference of interpretation within oral torah (talmud) its always been said that precedence carries the authority (as well as there are many (7) layers to every truth. Its becoming more and more evident that the modern concept of "Judaism" (both "orthadox" and reformed) and "Christianity" are concepts that began to branch forth at the same time.

The message of islam (quran) is communicated to its slaves through one Man not Prophets. There was no witness to him recieveing revelation. The self proclaimed "prophet" of islam (muhammad) obviously (and ignorantly) hijacked and remixed parts of the Tanakh, the Talmud, the N.T., the Gonostics, hindu sources, ...

___traditions of man___(take with a grain of salt)

"Rabbis" say Metatron and Enoch are one in the same and Phineas (Phinias/Pinchas) was in the spirit of Elijah (as we relate John the baptist). Moses may have come into the same type of connection (the 3 that are Enoch, Elijah and Moses may infact be two.) ....

The Nazernes

[William H.]

Zech.12:10 Matt.23:39 Rom.11:25 (fullness- at his return/ 2nd advent) in rabbinic Judaism the congregation Can’t identify anyone as Moshiach Until all of the role of Messiah Ben David has been fulfilled.

https://friendsnchrist.ning.com/profiles/blogs/mashiach-in-tanakh-1

Rambam using scripture makes a list (pertaining to messiah ben David) as the standard met before anyone can say anyone is Adon Moshiach this the reason many Jews won’t acknowledge Yeshua as The king of righteousness today. 

1.) Compel all of Israel to walk in the way of Torah
2.) Repair the breaches in observance
3.) Fight the wars of G-d
4.) The appearance of (build) the Beis Hamikdash (Temple) in its place
5.) Gather in the dispersed exiles of Israel

The redemption comes with Yeshua The Messiah (Ben David) 

4that usher in Judgement day and the redemption 

[William H.]

 https://biblehub.com/hebrew/1865.htm Hebrew #1865 דְּרוֹר  

liberty , release , freedom, flowing (tree), sparrow, 

Is.61:1 

[William H.]

Yeshua / Moses/ Elijah fasted for 40 days! 

Moses

. “Exodus 34:27-28And the Lord said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.
28 And he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments”- 

Elijah 

1 Kings 19:8 And he arose, and did eat and drink, and went in the strength of that meat forty days and forty nights unto Horeb the mount of God.... totally possible when you are chosen by G-D and total devotion”

Yeshua

Matt. 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. 

Mk.1:13, Lk. 4:2, ((Act.1:3))

[His_Will]

A singular olive tree is mentioned in relation to Jeremiah, The House of Israel & The House of Judah in Jer.11:16-17

[His_Will]

Moshe- Torah (House of Judah/Jews) and Elijah- the Prophets (House of Israel which includes those grafted in of the nations Gal.3:24-29/ Christians)

[His_Will]

Yes the site is getting some age on it Polly! (so is your post sorry). Glad the site has lasted and hope it continues to do so (G-D willing).

I guess we will be agreeing to disagree on the subject. I think I already covered Enoch in the OP and how he was one of many (all the common options used and listed here) to be transfigured. His days ended in the earth as well according to the verse just prior to mentioning him being transfigured yet he doesnt meet the discription of the two olive trees as Moses and Elijah Do! I also touched on something you may or not have interest in in the later part of the OP and made the statement that The 3 "Enoch, Elijah, and Moses" could in fact be considered as 2 in relation to Jewish views of how the Transfiguration works (as we see in relation to others I mention Like John the baptist and Phinchas). That could get deeper than I can currently go though.What Im Saying is we both could actually be right in a way! Thanks for sharing and I am familiar with your stance! Peace be with you 

[Polly Ticks]

Well this is a very old post! I will assume if I send a comment it will show up.

It is an interesting topic and I thought I would respond no matter how many years late I am.

I think the two witnesses are Enoch and Elijah. Those are the two who God took without death.

Hebrews 9:27 reads:

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Moses has already died. Enoch walked with God and was no more and Elijah was taken up by a whirlwind. I am not sure how those two events would be considered as death of the flesh.

We know Elijah is one because Malachi 4:5 reads:

Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

I know the corruptible body can't enter into heaven. However, isn't Satan's body being held while his spirit is here on earth? Couldn't he do the same with Enoch?

I always wondered who the other one would be.

[Priscilla]

YES! YES! YES!

 

God bless you friend